I disagree with Brene Brown on how to work with shame. What we do agree on is that integrating shame is one of the best ways to create more freedom and decrease personal suffering.
Thank you for this beautiful writing. Thank you for honoring your shame so deeply and so completely that it overflows as wisdom for us. As I read, I am struck by the nutrient rich spaces our shame can hold and the commitment you have to unraveling shame in the body, heart, and mind. I am struck by the thoroughness and generosity of actions offered for us as guests, receivers, in this space. Thank you. This is very powerful.
I get your point that shame can motivate people to grow, but I don’t think that’s what Brené Brown is arguing against.
You said you disagree with this quote from her, “We cannot grow when we are in shame, and we can't use shame to change ourselves or others.” I think she’s using the word shame in the colloquial sense, meaning coercion. Manipulation.
She’s right, you cannot manipulate people to change, because that’s tyranny, that’s dominance, that’s using fear and belittling. It doesn’t work.
I’m referring to the second part of her statement. I think she’s absolutely right.
I also think the first part of her statement is absolutely right. You cannot grow when you were in shame. That’s not to say that you are not correct in your astute observation that people with shame do grow. But that’s different than what she is saying, she is not saying that people with shamed do not grow, she is saying that they do not grow when they are IN shame.
She is 100% correct about this, and you can verify it for yourself. When you are in shame, you are stuck. That is not the place for growth. The place for growth comes after that shameful moment.
And I don’t mean it’s shameful in that they should feel shame for feeling shame, that’s the colloquial understanding which is false. I’m talking about shameful, as in being full of shame.
I’m using Brené Brown’s definition of shame: “the intensely painful feeling or experience of believing that we are flawed and therefore unworthy of love and belonging—something we’ve experienced, done, or failed to do makes us unworthy of connection.”
You may be right that in the quote you're referencing, she’s talking more about the act of shaming someone rather than the internal experience of shame itself. That’s a helpful distinction, and I appreciate you pointing it out.
That said, I still respectfully disagree with the idea that shame can’t be a driver of action or growth. In my view, people often use shame—consciously or not—to motivate themselves and others. And it can lead to achievement or transformation.
For example, I see many brilliant people doing incredible things in the world because they carry a deep belief that they’re not enough. That story fuels their drive to succeed, to prove their worth. They grow, learn, and accomplish a lot in the process.
But in my experience, that kind of motivation is ultimately unsustainable. While shame might catalyze action, it’s rarely a foundation for lasting wholeness or wellbeing. That’s why I believe it's more effective to engage with shame honestly—as something that can spark growth, yes—but that is painful and suboptimal for performance.
Thanks for your thoughtful response. I don’t think shame is the best motivator either. It’s like we’re running away from something while simultaneously focusing on improving it. There’s something disingenuous about it, like a fear of self, not just a sense of not being good enough. I agree that it’s unsustainable to be motivated by shame. Self improvement is ugly. There are better ways.
Thanks for sharing this, Andrew. I wholeheartedly agree. I don’t think we can understand ourselves (or each other for that matter) without understanding everything you’ve laid out. I appreciate how you show up in the world.
Thank you for this beautiful writing. Thank you for honoring your shame so deeply and so completely that it overflows as wisdom for us. As I read, I am struck by the nutrient rich spaces our shame can hold and the commitment you have to unraveling shame in the body, heart, and mind. I am struck by the thoroughness and generosity of actions offered for us as guests, receivers, in this space. Thank you. This is very powerful.
Thanks Tara. I think this is one of the most beautiful responses I've received on my writing here. Filled me up today!
I get your point that shame can motivate people to grow, but I don’t think that’s what Brené Brown is arguing against.
You said you disagree with this quote from her, “We cannot grow when we are in shame, and we can't use shame to change ourselves or others.” I think she’s using the word shame in the colloquial sense, meaning coercion. Manipulation.
She’s right, you cannot manipulate people to change, because that’s tyranny, that’s dominance, that’s using fear and belittling. It doesn’t work.
I’m referring to the second part of her statement. I think she’s absolutely right.
I also think the first part of her statement is absolutely right. You cannot grow when you were in shame. That’s not to say that you are not correct in your astute observation that people with shame do grow. But that’s different than what she is saying, she is not saying that people with shamed do not grow, she is saying that they do not grow when they are IN shame.
She is 100% correct about this, and you can verify it for yourself. When you are in shame, you are stuck. That is not the place for growth. The place for growth comes after that shameful moment.
And I don’t mean it’s shameful in that they should feel shame for feeling shame, that’s the colloquial understanding which is false. I’m talking about shameful, as in being full of shame.
Thanks so much for your thoughtful comment.
I’m using Brené Brown’s definition of shame: “the intensely painful feeling or experience of believing that we are flawed and therefore unworthy of love and belonging—something we’ve experienced, done, or failed to do makes us unworthy of connection.”
You may be right that in the quote you're referencing, she’s talking more about the act of shaming someone rather than the internal experience of shame itself. That’s a helpful distinction, and I appreciate you pointing it out.
That said, I still respectfully disagree with the idea that shame can’t be a driver of action or growth. In my view, people often use shame—consciously or not—to motivate themselves and others. And it can lead to achievement or transformation.
For example, I see many brilliant people doing incredible things in the world because they carry a deep belief that they’re not enough. That story fuels their drive to succeed, to prove their worth. They grow, learn, and accomplish a lot in the process.
But in my experience, that kind of motivation is ultimately unsustainable. While shame might catalyze action, it’s rarely a foundation for lasting wholeness or wellbeing. That’s why I believe it's more effective to engage with shame honestly—as something that can spark growth, yes—but that is painful and suboptimal for performance.
Thanks for your thoughtful response. I don’t think shame is the best motivator either. It’s like we’re running away from something while simultaneously focusing on improving it. There’s something disingenuous about it, like a fear of self, not just a sense of not being good enough. I agree that it’s unsustainable to be motivated by shame. Self improvement is ugly. There are better ways.
Thanks for sharing this, Andrew. I wholeheartedly agree. I don’t think we can understand ourselves (or each other for that matter) without understanding everything you’ve laid out. I appreciate how you show up in the world.
Thanks for the kind words brother. Always nice to know when the writing lands!
This one certainly did.